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----- Original Message -----
From: Gold Coast
To: Ronald J. Riley
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:33 AM
Subject: From James Dunn
Hi Ron, I think you know who I am but if
not I am the guy in the middle of the Agent Andy thing
(James Dunn) I
posted to the forum today about the points Andy put in a
reply to Milt Songy. I had thought I was done with this
but it keeps coming back......... Anyway I think that you
need to have your web page right if you are not taken it
down. I will send you the email in it's entirety that I
first received from Andy. I will also send the next 2
following as you will be better able to fix the
couple of quotes that are mixed up on the web page. I am
doing this just for the truth in the matter not any
preference to which side is right or wrong. Also you
posted today saying that you believed that I did not have
a NDA with Andy, "I have" and will keep him to
it. If you read my post their is a part about breach of
trust with Andy quoting from the confidential agreement
we had with Tom, this rely annoyed me. Not because Tom
said that, "I needed Andy more than he needed
me", but all this was agreed to be just between us
and was not for public display. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is the 1st
email........... Re: Paint saver device...
Do you have a fax number where I can send the signed NDA?
Otherwise, I may be able to scan it and attach it to an
e-mail. But fax is
easier for me.
<><><><>
The concept is valid. Sometimes it's the simple ones that
are best.
Have you searched the IBM patent website for similar
devices?
I see some problems; and I have the design solutions.
Shall we co-invent? I
can
send an NDA on my concept to you.
James - Please be advised that co-invention is really not
an objective of my
business. My inventiveness would serve me best, if I
would apply it to my own
projects. Perhaps due to my industrial design background,
or simply creative
abilities, this improvement on inventions of others
is happening more
frequently. I'm sorry to muddy the waters of our mutual
pleasure of creating
and marketing concepts by discussing business matters.
This is the third such
situation that has come up for me this week; and I have
to know what to do
about it. This is new to me because of my recent switch
from doing business
mostly with designers to doing business with inventors.
My business is based upon inventions of others; and I
partner with the
inventor
by contributing my licensing skills. However, when I see
weaknesses in
concepts
that otherwise have some merit, I am faced with a
dilemma. Do I say nothing;
and proceed with licensing something that I know is not
as good as the
improved
version? ...not too exciting. Do I say nothing; and
legally pursue the
improved
concept independent of the inventor? ...Does not sound
like something Andrew
Abrams would enjoy doing ...doesn't sound very ethical to
me.
I would like to propose the following business option
that I feel would
benefit
you, as well as, me as the co-inventor.
1) I will present the improvement to you under the same
conditions of
confidentiality that you have presented your concept to
me. I will send a
written and/or sketched description on an NDA for your
signature.
2) You decide if my improvement is valid, or not.
3) a) You "do not" think that my revision is
important enough ...we proceed
with my standard licensing procedure ...and you agree
that I can do anything I
want with my invention provided it does not in any manner
violate your rights
to your concept either legally, or ethically.
3) b) You "do not" think that my revision is
important enough ...I say that I
can't, in my heart of hearts, proceed with licensing
something that I know is
inferior ...and we each go on our merry way ...you are
free to pursue
licensing
your concept ...and I am free to pursue my concept (or do
nothing) ...all the
while we will maintain the mutual confidentiality of each
individual concept.
3) c) You "do" think that my revision is
important ...We proceed as
co-inventors and co-owners of the new intellectual
property ...I create the
presentation materials (drawings, samples, etc.) or, we
each do pieces as is
practical ...I will charge you a design fee (co-invention
fee?) for improving
your concept ...I will proceed with attempting to license
our jointly owned
concept. If I don't license it, you are free to license
it. Upon closing a
licensing agreement (by either one of us) with a
manufacturer, the sharing of
royalties will be on the same equal sharing basis as in
my normal licensing
agent business.
James - Please don't misunderstand this circumstance. My
creation of this
business mode is not because I think anything in
particular about you, your
abilities, or your projects. It's simply a matter of
approximately two dozen
such projects that I'm helping others with; and yours
tipped the scale a
bit. I
will be making this same proposal to the others. As
always, I am most happy to
review projects and offer professional feedback without
charging a fee. I
consider that an investment in the input end of my
business. The more I can
help people like yourself; the better off I will be also.
The creation of
improvements or additional intellectual property however,
is beyond the scope
of either coaching or licensing.
If you are interested in proceeding in the manner
described, let me know and I
will prepare a NDA and a fee proposal for the Paint Saver
project. Otherwise,
we can simply proceed without my improvements. The
integrity of our
relationship and confidentiality of your project will be
assured by me, under
any circumstance.
Thank you in advance for your understanding in this
matter.
Andrew Abrams aka AGENT ANDY
Licensing Agent and Career Coach
email: sparx@intercall.net
Lyndhurst, New Jersey, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This was my reply
...........>Andys words< Re; Paint saving devise, Don't take
this the wrong way but if we do business together I need
to be sure of some things. Andy I will start at the
beginning of your email and work down. Fax I think the
county code for Aus is 61,my fax no 03 97709838
>Sometime the simple one is best<. Well this is
simple. >IBM search< Yes I had a look through, did
not find any but I am no expert. > I see
problems... I have design solutions..
co-invent<. Problems? it seems to simple to have
problems? >Design solutions<, how can a round disc
have a design solution? >Co-invent<, I do not mind
this if it will get the devise on the market. need more
info on how you see this working. >Muddy waters<,
Hey don't sweat it, better clear everything at the
beginning > Weakness in design should be worked
out<, I agree. >Dilemma, Do I say nothing and do an
legally improved concept<. Well I have a problem with
this, how can you legally use an idea of someone else and
improve it. Surly that is not legal or ethical, after all
you would not have the idea by yourself just pirate
someone's concepts I know that you are just putting a
overview forward, but in your heart you know you would be
wrong to peruse this direction (as would I if it were me
we have to sleep at night). >Business options<
>(1)&(2) Present improved devise, NDA to me<.
That is ok by me I would like to see what you have in
mind. I am a man of my word and will treat it as, for my
eyes only. >(3)a) Do my concept as is, you proceed
with your offshoot<. I don't think we would get far
using this option, do you. >(3)b)< Same answer as
3a. >(3)c) Co-inventors, co-owners<. Look Andy I am
not greedy and this is only one of the many good ideas I
have, I let you have this to see how we get on (as I like
your style on the inventNet) and maybe let you have a
look at one after another. I don't understand how we can
be co-inventors, co-owners, if I pay you to draw up the
"improved concept". Then surely I have owner
rights to this improvement not co-owner? If we become
partners in this and maybe some other inventions I have.
It should be 50/50 on everything. This the first
invention I have tried to "license", but not my
first sucsess at inventing. I know you are in a business
and need to make money, but from where I sit you are in a
win/win situation (good business position). As I said
before I am a honest person who would not do wrong by
anybody, I have pride in myself and want to be fair in
this. Explain your position to give me a better view of
it After reading the above if you think I have grasped
the wrong idea of how things work in the licensing
business please let me know. We need to be clear (or I do
anyway) before we start as I will stick to what is agreed
on come hell or high water. Summarise, You fax me the
improvements you think the devise needs and if they are
suitable we can sort out this drawing and improvement
payment. >Thank you in advance for your understanding
in this matter< Hey I am not sure I do. James Dunn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is Andys reply.........the (JD) was not in the email
but may help you to understand it better. At 02:32
PM 3/12/99 +1100, you wrote:
Re; Paint saving devise,
Don't take this the wrong way but if we do business
together I need to be
sure of some things.
(JD)
<><><>
REPLY >>> I agree. That is why I'm bringing up
this matter. I will not do
anything without your approval and complete agreement.
<><><>
Andy I will start at the beginning of your email and work
down.
Fax I think the county code for Aus is 61,my fax no 03
97709838
(JD)
<><><>
REPLY >>> For future reference ...full number
from USA is 011 61 3 97709838
(note 3 ... not 03) Fax sent.
<><><>
>(1)&(2) Present improved devise, NDA to me<.
That is ok by me I would like to
see what you have in mind. I am a man of my word and will
treat it as,
for my eyes only.
(JD)
<><><>
REPLY >>> There's no point in my working up the
description and drawings if we
don't agree on the business arrangement for the design
work. I think we should
just pass on this one and move on to the next. I don't
think I can find a home
for your project as is but I would encourage you to
pursue it.
I absolutely will not do anything with my thoughts about
improvement under the
circumstance that I'm passing on this one. I simply can't
put in the extra
time
without payment ...Please understand that the problem is
that I have many
similar circumstances. It has nothing to do with you, or
your project.
Let's move on to other projects.
Andrew Abrams aka AGENT ANDY
Licensing Agent and Career Coach
email: sparx@intercall.net
Lyndhurst, New Jersey, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I sent Andy this email in reply.........I was being nice
as I was scared that he was going to just take the idea
for himself. I also wanted to find out how much he
charged as he said he did not charge money for his
services. Andy, I think you are right about moving
on to other projects. Just keep the info on this near at
hand as I still think you are the right person for the
job of licensing it (if you still want to do it). At the
moment I am just about to get my new invention on the
market so I do not have the spare money to get you to do
the drawings at the moment. If you think you can find a
licensee with us co-inventing I will try to get the money
but it will be a few months. I posted on inventNet (I did
it my way) about how I got my invention from start to
orders for no money. This is where the invention is at
right now, I need all my money to get it to the next
step. Buying the stock from the manufacturer. I tried for
30 day credit as I have sales but he said he thought is
was about time he seen some of my money for a change (I
had to agree). I tried to get the buying Company to pay
up front but the best I could do is C.O.D. I am still
happy about that though. So as you see my money is all
tied up and I don't want to borrow money from anywhere
(by the way I am a Scot maybe that explains about being
careful about money). I have one ace left, I am talking
to a world wide company who are getting a legal opinion
about my invention and if it is ok they want to advertise
there name on it so maybe I will manage to get it all
done for free. With the paint idea and another 4 ideas
that I have, I do not want to do these myself as it took
2 years with the one I am doing now. That is why I want
to license them. I have inventions to do with, toilet,
crowed control, golf cart, shopping trolleys. These are
ones at least as good as the paint devise, I gave you
that as it is simple one to start with. let me know how
much you think this drawing will cost me. James.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Andys reply............ At 05:19 PM 3/12/99 +1100,
you wrote:
Andy, I think you are right about moving on to other
projects. Just keep the
info on this near at hand as I still think you are the
right person for the
job of licensing it (if you still want to do it). At the
moment I am just
about to get my new invention on the market so I do not
have the spare money
to get you to do the drawings at the moment. If you think
you can find a
licensee with us co-inventing I will try to get the money
but it will be a
few months. (JD)
<><><>
REPLY >>> Above is noted and agreed.
<><><>
I posted on inventNet (I did it my way) about how I got
my invention from
start to orders for no money. This is where the invention
is at right now, I
need all my money to get it to the next step. Buying the
stock from the
manufacturer. I tried for 30 day credit as I have sales
but he said he
thought is was about time he seen some of my money for a
change (I had to
agree). I tried to get the buying Company to pay up front
but the best I
could do is C.O.D. I am still happy about that though. So
as you see my
money
is all tied up and I don't want to borrow money from
anywhere (by the way I
am a Scot maybe that explains about being careful about
money). I have one
ace left, I am talking to a world wide company who are
getting a legal
opinion about my invention and if it is ok they want to
advertise there name
on it so maybe I will manage to get it all done for free.
(JD) <><><>
REPLY >>> I noticed, from some of the InventNet
posts that followed your post,
of your story, that there were some who believed that
your method would not
work consistently. I think you left out the part about
needing capital for
inventory, in telling your story. The original story
sounded like a done deal.
Finding, or risking your own, capital is the most
difficult part of invention
venturing. Not impossible ...just difficult!
Are you aware that you can do licensing and manufacturing
simultaneously? You
can license the concept; and use the advance money to
conduct your own
marketing (and pay for initial inventory) under the
provisions of a Cottage
Industry Clause, or by tight definition of market and/or
territory.
<><><>
let me know how much you think this drawing will cost me.
(JD)
<><><>
REPLY >>> I would not want to take on this task,
for a fee, if you are
devoting
money (on a tight budget) to your current invention. I
would like to see you
close that deal first ....(this is Agent Andy, the
"Coach" speaking).
However, to give you an idea of what might be involved in
such "design" work
(not only drawing), here's my thinking...
Concept review, notation of good attributes and
weaknesses from point of view
of patent, manufacturing, marketing, and ease of use.
Create solutions to
weaknesses, produce initial sketches, write text
description of improved
design, create name or any other merchandising
improvements, and produce final
presentation drawing.
CONCEPT REVIEW - My fee for the Paint Saver concept (or
any future
submissions) is $90 consisting of: review your
presentation ($45) and verbally discuss
weaknesses in fifteen minute telephone consultation ($45)
...no improvement
suggestions ...simply a professional critique. Otherwise
projects can be
reviewed (with NDA) and with no comment, if I decide to
pass on the licensing
without a fee.
CONCEPT DEVELOPMENT - If the Concept Review calls for
improvement of the
project; and you want me to help with the improvement ...
My fee for a project
comparable to the Paint Saver concept would be $700.
All fee based business is started upon receipt by me of a
commencement payment
of fifty percent of the stated fee; and all intellectual
property created
by me remains my property (however partially by grant of
rights to you) whether
it is jointly owned by us, or not. The payment of the
design fee would not entitle
you to sole ownership of the rights, in the parts created
by me, unless a
buyout is agreed upon.
Andrew Abrams aka AGENT ANDY
Licensing Agent and Career Coach
email: sparx@intercall.net
Lyndhurst, New Jersey, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This email is the one I sent to Paul with his reply on
it. I never sent the email to anyone else. Andy thinks I
sent it to you. But it must have been Paul that did it.
James,
I knew at once who it was for several reason not the
least of which he tried pulling this exact same thing on
one of my clients when I referred them to him. (He
informed you in his letter that he would be putting the
same deal in front of a dozen or so other people.)
The situation I encountered was a simple thing like you
had. He wanted to be a co-inventor. He went through all
the rhetoric you read through. I simply told him his
contribution was nowhere near that of an inventor and at
best it was an obvious alteration and at worst he was
trying to claim that he invented what my client invented.
He backed down dramatically and instantly.
I have fought many rounds against him and will continue
to do so. I don't believe in how he does business. His
name is Agent Andy.
I think others will recognize him if not by his behavior
then by his "<><><>" or
calling himself "coach." I would like to
forward this to a couple of the personalities on
InventNet with your permission so that people are aware
of what is going on and may do something if they choose
it to be appropriate.
Paul
At 02:30 PM 3/14/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>>>
From James Dunn
To Paul Friederichs
Re Do you think this is some sort of scam?
Paul I know you are a
busy man but this email bellow has me a bit worried.
The person that sent it is a regular on inventNet
forum so I won't put his name on it. I maybe wrong
and I don't want to upset anyone. It smells of a form
letter so I think it may be something that he uses on
most of the first time inventors. If read it is forcing
me to pay him for drawings or he will use one of the
other options, which is taking my idea for himself, I
don't think he means this just trying to make me pay
for drawings I think. Just for your info as you know
the people at inventNet and if you think more action
is necessary it is up to you I am not to worried
about it. I sent him a reply which is also bellow.
=====================================================================
The reply I sent that the above talks about is
the 2nd email on this list. So that is the full
part for your file with nothing left out. So as you
can see I was forthright with Andy. At this time I
left Australia and went on holiday to Scotland for 6
weeks. This is when all the fireworks started and I
did not know anything about them till I came back.
While I was away Andy sent me 2 emails that I could
take him to court over if I wished, for defamation of
character. They accuse me of being on drugs and the
like, but I will not show them to anyone unless he
makes any more attacks on me on the forum. As I said
at the beginning of this, the reply to Milt rely got
to me. He seems to have a selective memory when it
suits him. Again this is for you to fix up the
web sight, I can defend myself if I need to. I do not
want to start this over again but will not let anyone
say things that are not "all the truth" and
bend it to make them look better. James Dunn.
=======================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronald J Riley
To: Gold Coast
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: From James Dunn
I am truly sorry that you were exposed
to all this controversy. I do wish you well and
I understand that you want to succeed with your
inventions. Last, are
you willing to have your name posted with these, or
would you like to keep it off as I did with the
original complaint? Ronald
J. Riley www.InventorEd.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: Gold Coast
To: Ronald J Riley
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: From James Dunn
Ron, I have no problem
with you using my name I think everyone knows who I
am. I also think it will be easer for continuity and
the emails should be posted unedited anyway. James
Dunn.
National
Inventor Fraud Center,
was founded by a young attorney who worked for ISC as an
intern.
Another information source is: Invention
Marketing Companies .
National
Congress of Inventor Organizations (NCIO)
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